Academic Waivers for LD Students?
Monday, September 9th, 2002
I realize that there has been a lot of discussion as well as some famous court cases about this topic but it’s not settled in my mind and I think it’s wide open to discussion.
Here’s a hypothetical situation:
- You have a learning disability: dyslexia
- You take the SAT with accommodations
- You get into a good university with some LD support
Are you with me? This is a pretty common scenario so far.
Okay, now you’re in, you’ve made it through your freshman year and you now are faced with the University’s foreign language requirement. You must take X terms of any foreign language, and computer programming is not an acceptable substitution.
You’ve never done well with languages including your native language so you need to find a way out of this.
This particular university has made clear from the start (you may have overlooked this upon admittance) that all students must meet all general university requirements to get a degree, no exceptions.
You could have gone to another university that offered the ability to waive foreign language but you chose this one (or your parents did) and here you are.
What’s interesting to me about this place that many students find themselves in is that discussing it brings up all sorts of interesting questions:
- What does a degree mean?
- If you can waive a requirement for any reason, does your degree mean as much?
- Is it your responsibility to know what the college/university policy is on waivers before you enroll?
- Is it a college/university’s right to have any requirements they want and any rules they want as long as they’ve made them clear to you from the start?
This is not a simple question and there are many nuanced and less than nuanced answers to it. What do you think?
Hi folks!
I am a special educator from India & also the Coordinator of an NGO here. We face similar problems about accomodations during exams for students with LDs in colleges. Our state boards offer provisions during exams upto the High School (Std XII). After that, students with LDs are literally thrown to the wolves….Students with physical disabilities get provisions right thru’ college and post-graduation, but our *gems with the hidden handicap* are left to fend for themselves….So many of them flounder right thru’ college, eventually dropping out of the education system….some of them turning into delinquents…such a bloody waste of bright minds, it makes me sick to think of the trauma they must be going thru’….Recently, a computer hacker was *caught* in Mumbai….& he turned out to be a computer genius with LD, who’d dropped out from University…..How does one deal with a University that doesnt care??….With people in high places who dont have the basic qualifications or sensitivity to occupy their chairs??
So, Sunita,
Back to my question. Because it’s so rough on LD students in India (and all of Asia) who enter college, do you think they deserve academic waivers? If so, when?
I agree, college can be brutal on someone with a learning disability but there are many reasons for this:
1. The college is brutal because they don’t understand kids with LD and have the wrong idea about them. Why, in this case, would that student have chosen such a college? And, once found out, why not transfer?
2. The college has an LD support program but when the student bumps into a subject he/she finds impossible (foreign language?) the college says they have to take it. and offers no support This is the scenario I refer to in my question. I say again, if these rules are made explicit before the student enrolls, then the student has a choice to not enroll or to again, transfer.
3. Same scenario as above but the college offers support but no waiver: tutors, extra time on tests, and other accommodations.
4. The college allows a student to waive courses based on assumptions about certain courses being harder for students with LD: foreign language, english, math…
5. The college allows a student to design their own curriculum based on their learning strengths and style.
My point is that every high school student with LD looking at college can choose from a range of schools with a range of accommodations for LD. Some have few, some have plenty.
The famous BU case is about students who wanted to go to BU and change BU’s supposedly stated graduation requirements because of their LD.
My opinion is that those students should have chosen another college. They could have chosen Northeastern, right down the street from BU which may have a more accommodating view of these issues.
But, the pressure from society and parents to go to BU (or Harvard or a “name” school) is great and because of this, students are going to schools that are too hard for them.
Which raises the other hidden point about this: how easy is it to sort out the difference between lack of accommodations and a curriculum just being too hard?
Isn’t it possible that no matter how much accommodation one puts in place, there are some schools that are just too hard for some students?
Again, I see nothing wrong with this because students have choices: they can go to less rigorous schools. Again, the pressure is on from parents mostly to go to more rigorous schools so it can be said: “my kid goes to school X” at a cocktail party.
Guys
You both have it right and wrong. It is right to find a collage that fits your needs. But the Boston ruling makes the decussion a mutt issue. The ADA is the backbone to helping those of us with learning disabilitys.But it does not go far enough.
Point, the subject of foreign language ,many people can not pass the required class, but in asking for a substitution are thay realy getting out of it ? I say no. The classes I have had to take as a substitution for my foreign language class are equeal. I ask you why should a person who wishes to better themselfs be forced to limit themselfs becouse the universitys wont work with them. If thay can not compleat one or two courses, due to no real fault of there own. a substitution may be all thay need .
This rule should go for math as well as a foreign language., But it does not universityss do blanket rulings agenst requests for a math substitution in every case I have read. Think about i, is that fair? is it just? I do not think so,what do you think?
I’m still thinking of the fact that when applying for college, we all have choices.
We can choose colleges that are friendlier to this issue and we can choose colleges that are not.
If we choose a college that has a set of academic rules in place, don’t we have to abide by those rules? I don’t think anyone should expect a double standard.
I think it’s up to us to make the right choice and if we choose to go to, say, BU, with its less flexible standards then we have to abide by them.
For me the issues is less about the law and more about taking some personal responsibility.
Is it an ideal that every school be accessible to every person? Sure, but the current real falls somewhere short of that and that’s the world we live in.
So, we have choices: go to a school with less flexibility and spend a lot of time fighting, or go to a school with more flexibility and spend more time learning.
This issue comes up because people want to go to schools with fancy names that just happen to be more rigorous and less flexible yet they want those schools to flex for them.
Somehow I have a problem with this.
Some of us are idealist enough to want to change the world. ; ) Really, if physcially handicapped advocates had not staged a protest here in town, we might still not have ramps on our sidewalks. Sure “they” could have used the street, taken sidewalks with short curbs, or just stayed home. But we were wrong and just hadn’t seen it.
This one I really have a problem with. Richard, whatever makes you assume people are going there for the name? Or because Mommy and Daddy want them to go there? The young people I know research colleges pretty dang completely. Some go because they know what they want to study and the school has a excellant program in that area. I have a friend who went to a “name” school not because of its presege but because it has a solid acedemic program in the esetic area he was interested in. He is very, very bright, dedicated, and is full of perservance. If 98% of the classes are perfect for him, why should he have to settle for a 2nd rate education because of a disablity?
Just so you know where I’m coming from. I graduated from a no name state college. And was very happy with the education thank-you-very-much! (But that doesn’t mean I think others should have to go there.)
Barb
Well, all of this stems from the BU case which I have very mixed feelings about (as do others).
BU is a private school and a group of students registered there and then, after the fact decided that they did not want to take foreign language.
I just don’t think you can have it both ways: I want the BU name and I want their curriculum on my terms.
If you want the BU name then you have to accept the riggor which means what they think is a well-rounded education. I’m not defending their view, I’m defending the idea that everyone knows the rules before they even apply, let alone decide to go.
How can schools be competitive or are we dropping rigor differences in this ideal world?
I too went to a state university, The University of Oregon and I did it pre-LD support programs. I was a resident of California at the time and any of the Cal campuses were better schools (in most traditional liberal arts areas) but I could never have cut it there so I went to a more accessible out of state univeristy, paid the difference and was happy and did well.
Trust me, I’m not into name dropping or defending snootyness but I do think that there are students for whom Harvard is not appropriate because it’s too rigorous and the curriculum asks things that they can’t do.
Please note that I agree that not all collages meet a persons needs. But there should be certin standred that will work as a base line for all universitys and collages.
BU promlum started when a university had a set of standerd and someone new came in and rebuilt the program, with out considereding the people he was impacting. BU is lucky thay only had to deal with the foreign langiage problum thay should have been hit with the math as well.
How do I fell about a name univesity,I sort of go to one ,on a distance degree program, only becouse thay meet my needs most of the time.In my case I went to a small collage for a AA and I still need 4 credits in math. I am also working on a BA with 35 credits to go, 9 of those are math. I can not do the math, but I do not want a hand out and so I am asking (fighting) for a substitution.
Do I think it lessens the value of my degree?no, I work just as hard or harder then the next student and I have a 3.0 grade adverage. Do I think I have the right to recive a degree even though I can not do math ? Yes. I know my limits and would never seek employment beyound what I can do .So where do we go from here ? I for one intend to keep fighting until the question of substitutions of math have been settled once and forall.How about you?
What schools would anyone recommend for a person with LD in the NorthEast?
My child is approaching college and I am frantic, he is so bull headed about school work, the not me attitude and one mess of disorganization. But, very strong verbal language/social skills and at least average intelligence. Writing and math are killers. Foreign language yuck, and a trade FORGET IT, even trying to put a key in an unfamiliar lock is torture for him. He hates school work, but I admit not going to college is not an option.
A number of students we know had good experiences with the LD support program at Northeastern University in Boston.
There are many schools in the Boston area with decent LD support but you really need to look closely at the general university requirements and talk with the LD support folks when you tour about waivers or alternatives, if they have them at all.
Be clear about all of this from the start and it shouldn’t be much of a problem down the road when he has to take various classes. And, my recommendation is to get said classes out of the way early or in summer school rather then putting them off until the end and then running the risk of not graduating.
My son is just starting to deal with the college situation as an almost finished Junior in High School. Can anyone recommend accomodating colleges in the
Western part of the country? We live in California.
Thanks
Have you looked at our list here? We have a list of colleges that you can scan by state.
First off, I’d like to say how much this site has helped me. I was recently hired as an Academic Advisor at Baker College in Allen Park, MI and was also made the special needs coordinator. Basically, I’m the one who decides who gets accomodations. I do have some experience tutoring LD students, but this is kinda a new angle for me. It’s nice to get the insight of people with LDs who have been successful.
As for the waivers, we do not offer replacement classes usually. That would be under extreme circumstances and would have to come down from someone above me. We also don’t require a foregn language, so the only time it would really come up is with math classes. We do offer plenty of other accomodations (free tutoring, untimed testing, etc.) to help level the playing field. But it does bring up an interesting argument. I would have to say a student going into a school needs to know what the requirments of the program are and what accomodations are available for them. I think most schools are more than willing to help out LD students, but they get a little sensitive when it comes to something that might question the integrity of their program, and that’s why schools may shy away from waivers.
Chip: well said.
Thanks for the kind words about the site and for your thoughtful comment.
In my mind, as long as rigor is one of the many variables that differentiates schools, schools ought to be entitled to hold students to standards. Of course, offer any and all accomodations to level the playing field but don’t change the standards. That was my point but I know it’s not a very popular one or is misunderstood in the LD community.
Thanks again.
Ashley, you just described my son, are you sure he is yours?
I too am wondering how this will all play out. Sometimes I am sick with worry for him. He is so intelligent but paper and pencil output is so hard and yes organizational skills are slowly improving but need so much more. Math yikes and I fear the upcomming year of spanish in 9th grade.
How about Curry College, anyone have any experiences to share?
Richard, I live in the NorthEast and I see all the time parents pushing their kids into colleges that are just to much for them. I teach school and I wonder why some of these kids are not going to a college that will support them and where they will be successful.
I hear to much that their child will NOT go to a state school or a community college. The parents encourage the big name schools for the NAME but not thinking about how their child will have success there.Some of these schools are just to hard.
The BU case is an example, just because you have …. you should not be exempt from their requirements. Go to a school that will met your needs. Many people I know have been very successful at a local community college for their first 2 years and then transfer. The big school might open doors to start but really we all end up where we are by our own drive with a little luck.
You can buy the big school name sweatshirt online – or better yet go to mall.
Jean, thanks for your support of this idea, which, I’m sorry to say, is not very popular among many parents.
Many parents want their kids to go to schools with names because they can then “spin” that at cocktail parties or, legitimately, they believe their kids will get a better education at those schools.
The problem is that if the LD kids can’t keep up then they get humiliated and lose a year or two struggling to keep up in a curriculum that’s too fast and too full (of reading and writing) for them.
Many LD students think that they have a right to attend any school regardless of its academic standards and that once admitted the school must bend to accomodate them.
Both of these scenarios seem to be leading to unhappy students who are not well placed and who either flunk out or drop out early.
The flip side is also true: just because a person has a learning disability does not mean they must attend a highly structured school with LD support throughout the entire curriculum. Students with learning disabilities successfully go to BU, Harvard and Yale, just not ALL students with LD.
What my wife and I generally recommend is that students start at a school that’s well within their academic means and when and if they’re ready, transfter to a more rigorous one later, maybe for their junior and senior years. Or, stay at the easier school and go to a more rigorous grad school.
I got a great education at both a community college and a state university and both were within my academic means (one I learned how to work) and I went on to graduate school.
Richard,
You are really correct when your write-
Many parents want their kids to go to schools with names because they can then “spin” that at cocktail parties or, legitimately, they believe their kids will get a better education at those schools.
My kids go to a local catholic high school and I cannot believe when I am with parents at events how much chatter I hear about how their kid is not allowed to go to a state school, never mind a community college. As college is approaching for one of my children I also hear the same chatter from him!
This does not come from me since I went to a commmunity college for 2 years, than a state college and later on a private college for my M.S.,
and yes I do have learning disabilities, but it was the fit for me and at that time I felt no pressure about going that route.
I believe and see many parents making their kids feel some colleges are just not good enough for them. So many students I know with LDs who go to many of these schools wind up leaving year one and end up at their local community college.
Oh and by the way some of the local community colleges around me have very good ld support systems in place and good teachers. I only wish they had dorms!
I wonder if it is in the best interest of the student to take the SAT with accommodations for some learning disabilites? Is it better for some to take under routine conditions?
Jean, the SAT question is a great one and I’ve turned it into a new discussion topic. Let’s continue talking about it there. Thanks.
Does anyone have any comments on the University of Massachusetts? Good or Bad? Thank You, Deena Plaster
I’m both a person with LD and a college professor. The problem is with math (not foreign languages, one of my strong areas). I think any college or university that has advisors and a system that is flexible enough to provide both information about possible choices and acceptable substitutes is a good bet. For example, someone whose LD is primarily auditory could substitute American Sign Language, which is a subject my univeristy offers. I’ve had a student take a course in the culture and history of the speakers of an ancient language I study, and I suppose if the argument is that one should study a foreign language to gain insight into another culture, then that made sense. I’d make other arguments for why a foreign language is valuable, but that’s another story. After the student had taken the course with me, we had a long talk about the student’s plans for grad school. She was interested in a subject that required extensive knowledge of German, and we just talked frankly about how much the subject meant to her, how much energy she was willing to put into getting that German deciphered etc. The upshot of it all is that she got admitted to a prestigious program in a related field that didn’t require all the German, and the last I heard she was doing splendidly. So I guess the upshot is: information, assessing how much one can reasonably do even with assistance, and flexibility in making one’s plans
Sara: Good points all and I agree. The only thing I’d add is that a great teacher (such as you maybe) can pull a student into a course they might not feel they can handle.
In other words, an accessible teaching style can go a long way toward making what might seem like an inaccessible subject, accessible.
It’s true, no doubt, that students with language-based learning issues find it hard to parse or even understand the structure of their own language, let alone a foreign language, yet, I’ll bet some of these very same students, with the right teaching, can go further than they thought.
I just hate for people to automatically say “I’m LD therefore I can’t handle any foreign language.”
I think the same thing applies to math: put a great teacher into the equation and what was inaccessible becomes accessible. We forgot to factor in the teacher when making these kinds of assessments, don’t you think?
Richard,(and all),
First, THANK GOD I FOUND THIS SITE! Reading all your stories from, students,parents and teachers actually took my breath away.He percervered w/ dyscalculia & now a jr.He desperately wants to go to college in MA & be K-6 teacher.”R”,BU? N’eastern? smaller HELP
Karen, I’ve heard Northeastern has a decent LD support program and there are many other colleges in the Boston area and Massachusetts in general that have good LD support and some even have professional Ed schools.
Glad you find the site useful and the stories supportive. Good luck with the college process and know that even if its bumpy if he keeps on pushing it will work out.
Dealing with UMass Lowell language requirement for someone who just CAN’T LEARN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE??