How important is spelling in applying for and holding a job?
Thursday, February 3rd, 2005
Many bright, successful dyslexic adults have problems with spelling. How these problems are dealt with in job interviews and on the job raises some interesting questions.
1. Is spelling ability (or lack thereof) an indicator of anything beyond spelling ability?
2. Is it reasonable or even legal to not hire someone because they can’t pass a spelling test?
3. How far much an employer go in helping an otherwise skillful dyslexic adult compensate for problems with spelling on the job?
Questions about spelling are simple but questions about spelling in the context of a job that requires a large amount of writing make the issue more complex.
Using a spelling test given on paper in the age of electronic writing tools is not a reasonable way to sort out good writers from bad writers but if a dyslexic adult can’t spell well or choose the correct words, even with electronic aids, how far does an employer need to go to keep them on the job?
On a number of occasions I have been refused work, primarily based on a spelling test.
Some people seem to think this is ok, frankly I consider this sort of thing outright discrimination.
Has anyone else had this experience?
I would be interested to know where the law stands on these issues.
I know how you feel. I am one of the worst spellers in the world or at least I feel that way. When my daughter was very young, she had some serious medical problems. So I resigned my position as a resource teacher to be a stay at home mom. It was not too long after that; we found a solution for her medical problems. When she went into Kindergarten, I thought that it would be fun to do something different so I applied for work at one of the temporary employment services. I tested so badly that they never called me, and I never called them back. I was more than embarrassed. Later, I found another teaching position.
I have accomplished great things in my career. I have a $20,000 technology grant, and I have assisted many children with disabilities to become active learners and taken charge of their lives. In my opinion of myself I am a good problem solver that loves to create and help others. However, if I was required to take a spelling test to be a teacher, I would FAIL.
People without disabilities seem to think if a person cannot spell then that person is stupid. I guess they think if a person cannot spell, that person must be mentally retarded. It is sad, but at the start of my career, I had some mentally retarded high school students who could spell better than me.
I teach my resource students to spell everything correctly. They get a plus point for every letter that is spell correctly on their spelling sheet that they use for writing stories. They learn to listen for sounds and learn to remember patterns. They learn not to stress about spelling; instead, they learn to use dictionaries, computers, and other people for assistance when their spelling is very bad. Not one of my students will ever write a word a hundred times each, re-test, and write the missed words a hundred times each again.
My students will have to take the state writing test that does not provide modifications for spelling without invalidating the test. So the state’s writing test becomes a spelling test instead of being a test to express oneself effectively concerning a certain topic.
My spelling problems are not from a lack of effort. I have written more words over and over again, more times in an attempt to learn to spell. My problem is that I just do not interpret sounds correctly. This is especially true when I am unable to take my ADD medication, which helps my sound interpretation and organization. It helps me stop making silly mistake after mistake. I know many people are against ADD medication but it helps me function independently. I should have been provided the medication the first thirty plus years of my life because it makes my life so much easier.
I think it is wonderful that I live in a time of technology. There are spell checkers and word processors that check my work. One day, I might try a word processor that uses voice input instead of a keyboard.
Richard, good luck, but I think that I would be having the same problems passing spelling test to get a job especially when there is so much emphasis on perfection. People really need to be educated about learning disabilities and attention deficit disorder.
JLHSmith (Janie)
ichard, I understand most of your thoughts. No employer needs an un-motivative worker who is not willing to help himself.
When I was in the eighth grade I had a teacher/coach who said that a person who was innovative, creative and had unanswered questions would be extremely valuable to a business. He said that ideas made businesses rich because ideas create new products.
Of course my class argued with him saying a worker was more valuable if he did his job well, and was smart meaning the worker was perfect in the basic skills. I think that most people still think this way. Also, I think that when a person has a learning disability, people assume they are not smart in all areas.
My concern is that when the other Richard or myself apply for a job, and we are tested for spelling. No one is even considering giving us accommodations through technology for our spelling difficulties. They are not testing our creativity or problem solving skills. They might not even look at our accomplishments. They just assume that we are not smart enough to handle the job because we did not pass a spelling test. They are closing a door of opportunity not only for us but also for themselves. Most of the people that I know with dyslexia are creative, innovative, and good problem solvers. Yes, there are certain jobs that are not appropriate for certain individuals. There are jobs that I would not like. However, I would do very well in a creative job with a word processor or an assistant.
This year all my students are new to me. Also, about two weeks ago, I have started teaching the resource language classes. All the students’ spelling is horrible, and their sentence structure is even worse. Right now, their hopes for a good job are extremely poor. But, I am not giving up. I predict that there will be extremely positive changes in most of the students; once, they learn to use their creative strengths and motivation to learn. Will I be able to make their disabilities go away? No. Should they be allowed to prove themselves to a potential employer in the future? Yes and I hope a door is not closed because of a spelling problem.
JLHSmith (Janie)
Well, I’m sure there is some of this but not all employers work this way.
However, if writing comes hard with or without an accommodation, why apply for a job that involves a lot of it?
A rewarding thinking job usually requires writing. I can usually write with the accommodations of a spell checker and an editor. Even though there is not a spell checker on this discussion board, I am smart enough to find one. If I am concerned about something not being written correctly my husband has a journalism background from college.
I worked my way through school as a factory worker packing bags and as a waitress. These jobs were not mentally challenging for me. They did not provide the creative outlet that I needed in my life. Not all people need to think or solve problems to feel successful but I do.
Before the second resource teacher was moved to another campus this year, we made an excellent team. I had the ideas and she had the words. Now that she is gone, will I stop having ideas? No, I will find someone else to work with. Also, I believe when all people work together using their strengths, they can create some amazing projects.
I also think that most LD and ADD students need the challenge of thinking to succeed. Just because they have problems with basic skills, they don’t need to spend their whole school career working on the knowledge level. It is when their thinking skills are enriched that they find the desire to improve and produce quality products.
JLHSmith (Janie)
If you use a web browser that has a built in spelling checker then you will have a spelling checker on this discussion board.
I agree, everyone should have a stimulating job that uses their skills and intelligence in a way that benefits everyone.
But, if a job requires a lot of reading and writing and a person does not enjoy doing those things (may or may not be good at them) I would think that job would be last on a list of jobs to apply for.
Most of my early jobs did not require a lot of reading and writing and I was able to do them at the same time that I was getting better at reading and writing. To force myself into a job that was beyond my skills and then expect the employer to accommodate me I think is beyond acceptable.
And, this leads us to class and cultural bias about one kind of job vs. another; what we might call the “class hierarchy of jobs.
Many people in the higher ed world pooh pooh trade schools as places for dummies yet most plumbers make more money than most teachers. If a living is what you’re after, there are many ways to make one.
If, however, status or class or a certain kind of intellectual achievement is what you’re after, that might require a bit more literacy (plumbing requires a lot of literacy, not to mention sequencing, planning, and organization) but laywering requires more.
I guess what I’m saying is that there are other influences at work on what kind of jobs people think they ought to have besides money.
Well, this is quite an interesting problem.
As you’ve both said, spelling does not equal intelligence although just like poor syntax in speech, many people form a stereotype of a person when speech or spelling are not done well.
Spelling by itself doesn’t mean a whole lot but when combined with other problems of written expression it can be meaningful.
Sometimes folks who have problems with spelling also have problems with syntax, organization, and overall clarity in their writing.
Spelling is one thing: clear communication is something else.
So, imagine you’re hiring folks for a job that involves wirting memos and reports. As part of the hiring process you have folks write a report and a memo.
All of this is done on a computer so eveyone has the same tools, let’s assume any digital writing support you want.
If, given an accomodation one still can’t write clearly and spell well then I think there is a problem in job fit.
There’s a limit to how far an employer has to bend once the technological accomodation has been offered.
I guess what I’m driving at is that a technological accomodation does not do the writing for you; you still have to know when to use “affect” or “effect” and have to be able to proof your own writing.
Yes, all of us improve with the help of some kind of accomodation; the question is whether an employer should be forced to allow us to practice and improve on the job. I think basic writing skills need to be taken care of before we get into a situation where we’re forced to use them under pressure (on the job).
This problem of weak basic writing skills goes beyond the LD world: it’s aparent in almost every freshman college class in many colleges and universities in the US anyway.
Richard: First let me clarrify, I am replying here not just to the above quote, but to your part in the discussion this far.
The jobs I was turned down for were jobs I KNOW I would have been more than capable of.
I have worked as a pensions administrator, a job in which, among other things, I composed letters that were sent out to clients. I handled the job well. In fact there were occasions where one of the newer fulltime staff (she had been there a month longer than me) would ask me for help.
I used a spell checker! If I had had a spelling test on applying for this job I would never have gotten it.
In this country at least most employment agencies test your spelling. It is wrong, because it is based on wrong assumptions. It assumes that because your spelling is poor that you will not be able to do other things. It also disregards the plain and simple fact that with a spellchecker there is no problem.
I resent the implication that someone who can’t spell word perfect should not be given a job that involves the written word.
I haven’t got any plumbing qualifications, I wan’t a job in which I can express my ideas, and whatever that is it will involve the written word.
You seem to be implying that I shouldn’t be given such a job untill such time as I have learned to spell. Frankly I don’t take kindly to this.
Richard
No, that wasn’t my point. My point is that there are limits to how far an accommodation can go. In this country it is rare to be given a spelling test on a job application.
It’s more likely to be given a task to do with the tools you’d be using on the job to see how well you’d do with it. My implication is that some folks (obviously not you) also have other kinds of language related problems on top of or in addition to spelling. There’s a limit to what an accommodation can do.
On this we disagree.
1. what’s wrong with doing things with your hands while you practice your writing skills? Or, further, what’s wrong with doing things with your hands period?
Do you think you are owed your perfect job? Where does it say that everyone can have any job they want, skills aside, right from the start?
Many people (most I would think) move through a number of jobs, all the while honing their skills and learning new ones. A few people start right where they want but more have a variety of jobs until they finally land the one they want and stick with it for a while. That has been my experience and I’ve had dozens of jobs: everything from cannery assembly line worker to logger to potter to ditch digger to teacher and more. Not all were what I wanted to do at the moment but when I was logging I sure wasn’t qualified to edit writing and had you asked me I’d have told you so.
2. Forget spelling for a second. If writing clearly is an important part of a job and a person can’t do it, should they be given the job and then be allowed to learn to write through accommodation on the job?
That’s the part of the discussion I have problems with. I agree spelling is unimportant by itself, but how far do we go in tossing aside parts of the framework of clear written expression if a job requires clear written expression?
You may have notice it or not I have a lot of problem with my writing and my sentence structure. I had what I would consider a successful career in web development, but when the economy turned and my company had layoffs I was the first on the list.
Today I am looking for a job and frankly I never mention that I am a horrible speller or that I have dyslexia in the interview but I am always frightened that if I get hired they will let me go because of my poor communication skills. One could ask me why don’t you go into a different profession where you would not have to write well I like what I do and to me spelling is not the most important thing unfortunately it is very important in a the kind of job that I am looking for I compensate by being trying to be the best at what I do.
I can see that there are different opinions in this tread and strangely enough I agree with most of them spelling is not the mark of a creative thinker but if your a painter and never show anybody what good is it.
Also you mention that the employer should not make too much special accommodations for an employee well I agree with that too. the best is to find an emplyer that is open to you.
Edward,
Great post and I agree completely.
I guess I’m over-reacting to folks with LD putting too much pressure on employers to accommodate too much illiteracy which in the long run will mean a bias against hiring folks with LD.
There already is a bias but we have to do our part to show employers that we can handle the work if given the right tools.
Richard,
I am glad that you are beginning to see things differently.
Yesterday, I thought about this spelling discussion often during two events at my school. First, was during the school district’s practice language/writing test and the second was during an ARD meeting.
A little over two weeks a go, I started working with a young man in fourth grade. A couple of days ago, while we were working on acting out a fourth grade story and finding new vocabulary words, this young man was activity involved in the lesson finding words and providing correct definitions without looking them up in a dictionary. However his regular teacher feels that this young man does not belong in her classes because he is extremely slow and is unable to complete his written work.
Yesterday while he was taking the writing portion of the district language test, he asked me several times to spell words for him. Of course, I was not able to do this and I encouraged him to spell the best he could. After working on the writing portion of the test for over an hour, he was second to the last to finish. He had written only half a page. While he worked, I was wondering how he would perform if he was given a computer with a word processor that wrote from his verbal dictation? I also wondered, why didn’t the state did not revamp their test to allow students to write using the technology that is available in most job situations that requires writing?
Later, we had this young man’s annual ARD meeting. While the committee went over his speech assessment, I was surprised to find that this young man had a 140 IQ. Yet, from my testing to prepare for the ARD meeting, this young man writes on second grade level. So during the meeting I was thinking how many accommodations are appropriate so that this young man is able to function in a class that is far below his intellectual level but far above his written language ability? I also was thinking about this young man‚Äôs future. Should this young man seek a job that meets his intellectual level or should he be satisfied with a job meets his written language abilities? It is my personal opinion that this young man and all other people with LD should reach for their dreams and go after the job that meets their intellectual abilities. Their weaknesses are minor if they can find ways to cope with their disabilities.
One thing that most LD/ADD people have is that they don’t want others to know that they have a disability. They usually struggle to keep that part of their lives secret from co-workers and bosses at all cost. I am lucky. I have a boss that I trust who is aware of my weakness but values my gifts. I wish that was possible for all people with LD and ADD, but before that can happen, people with LD and ADD have to pass employment test or be allowed a trial employment period to prove themselves. If this does not happen, then they will be stuck in jobs that will be unsatisfying to their intellectual abilities.
For those interested in the young man, he will get extra help with his written language and reading skills in resource. Then he will be given accommodations in his regular education classes that will allow him to function and learn where he is given credit for his oral knowledge. The committee also recommended a dyslexic assessment.
JLHSmith (Janie)
There’s nothing wrong with doing things with your hands; if I had any such skills I would use them.
I am very busy practicing my writing skills, writing posts on this thread for example, it’s all part of the process.
However it does seem absolutely absurd to me that spelling is put at such a premium. Considering how easily this can be corrected with a word processor.
My brother is very practical, and fits the profile of the young man Jeane was talking about. For him the solution has indeed been to do a job that is practical and hands on. He is doing well now, but not before he passed his degree, which was assessed with Essay’s. His grade was much lower than it should have been, and did not represent his practical skills.
This doesn’t even begin to address the very real discrimination he faced at school.
All I am saying is this; if the job is with a word processor don’t test my spelling, and if the skills are practical ones why test them with an essay?
If your concern is that employers will be more reticent about taking on those with LD. I don’t actually see how they could get any more difficult.
Personally I find application forms harder than anything else. Certainly harder than the jobs they are failing to get me in for.
Another major factor is word blindness for real names. This makes job interviews extremely difficult for me. Who will believe I know about … when I can’t even remember what it’s called.
Richard
Edward: The way I think about this is in terms of society as a whole. How does it benefit? I think we all benefit when people’s skills are, where possible, put to good use. This is not just an LD issue it is a general issue.
As far as finding “an employer that is open you”. I think this is idealistic to say the least.
Richard
So, you’re saying that I must have this propensity for assembly-line cannery work and digging with a shovel that not everyone has?
I don’t get it. Does every job one has in life have to tap all of one’s most highly prized skills?
This is not a matter of propensity; this is a matter of the process of growing personally and professionally to a place where you’re doing what you want to do.
I think there is a wrong-headed idea in younger folks that those of us who seem to have a career have had the same career since birth.
I know very few LD adults who have followed or are following a straight and narrow career path. I can only speak for myself but my path has been winding and while on it I had no idea that I’d be doing this much writing while on it. Had I known that I doubt I’d have been able to speed things up (my own maturity as a writer) by more focus on writing or taking only jobs that involved writing (providing I could get any and that’s doubtful); I had to go through this process of doing other things while my writing improved.
Sheesh Richard, it sounds like you have a pretty low opinion of employers as a whole. But, don’t generalize, you may not have applied at the right factory.
Does that attitude get in the way of a job interview? Just wondering?
That is not what I’m saying Richard.
Yes there are factory jobs and the like out there, I have done plenty of them.
When I was talking about practical skills, I meant like plumbing or mechanic, the sort of job which is skilled. My brother is great with electrics, and can fix just about anything. These are the sort of practical skills, that I really don’t have.
sorry to be so resentful, but yet again, I resent the implication that I should go out and get a another factory job.
I am a highly skilled person with a good degree and a postgraduate diploma. I deserve more than that. If you don’t think so, well your prejudice on parlance is as bad if not worse than the employers who rejected me for work, based on nothing more than a spelling test.
Richard
Richard,
So anyone with LD should work in a factory and shovel for a living, untill such time as they learn!??
Richard
I was trying to comment on what I perceived as what we call “class prejudice” in this country.
The idea that there is a hierarchy of work and that hierarchy is based on factors that prove more or less intelligence.
This hierarchy may not exist in the UK but it surely does here in the US.
Our culture pushes the assumption that one is a failure if one goes to trade school and a success if one goes to grad school.
My point on this is not aimed at Richard F, it is a general comment on the limitations of choices for people who have a hard time with written language.
The US cultural bias limits choices by making dyslexic students who need more time to improve their language skills feel that they have no other choice but college after high school. This I think is a problem.
I’m dyslexic just like you and have suffered many of the same roadblocks, maybe more, maybe less. I also have devoted most of my adult life to thinking and writing and speaking publicly about these very problems.
You’re right, I do have a prejudice. My experience has led me to believe that personal independence is the most important thing in (my) life. Not everyone feels this way but it’s one of my core beliefs.
I think we need to overcompensate for the low expectations others have of our thinking and writing abilities by being as qualified and as independent as we can be.
Richard,
There are two issues here. The first is what should we as individuals do, and the second is what should society do.
When it comes to ourselves as individuals, yes personal independence is paramount, I agree.
However society does have some very real responsibilities, and these are issues that should not be ignored simply because, the best way for any one of us (as individuals) to get on in life is to; be independent, muddle through and ,make our own road.
I strongly believe that society should work to make the most of the human resources available to it. This is a lot broader than just dyslexia, or LD.
When prejudice on the part of employers, based on nothing less superficial than spelling stands in the way of employing someone, who is otherwise capable, everyone loses out.
As a society we need to include people. I am not saying take people on who can’t do the job, that is stressful for all parties but every person who is disenfranchised by the system, to the point of no longer feeling that they are a part of it is a tragic waste of humanity.
Not to mention (from a more pragmatic perspective) a drain on resources.
So yes, as individuals off course we are responsible for our own lives, but as a society we have some very real responsibilities to think about.
Richard
As Pogo once said:
“I have seen the problem [society] and it is us.”
If we’re all part of society I’m not sure how we can have a “them and “us” attitude. We too have to work to make the most of our own resources even within a potentially or really hostile environment.
Most societies don’t celebrate differences and I think this is part of what you’re driving at here and I couldn’t agree more.
Diversity makes groups stronger and generally keeps cultures going even in times of rapid change.
However, there’s a lot of pressure here in the US, maybe in the UK too to blend and be just like everyone else.
Change of the type you’re talking about (attitudinal change) is very slow to come.
There are numerous ways to change attitudes:
1. wait a generation and hope that attrition helps (it doesn’t always).
2. Note the problem and hope it will go away or change by itself.
2. protest the bad attitudes (I did it in the ’60s and am about to start again on Iraq).
3. work from the inside to convince people that not all people with X are lazy, stupid, etc.
I’d say each of these has a place and there are undoubtedly more.
So, I guess my question is: what are we going to do to change the prevailing attitude that spelling ability = intelligence? Can we do anything to change that attitude?
Richard,
As you say society is us, this does not in anyway take away from what I am saying. In fact it serves to clarify.
I believe, that an argument about what society should do has to be based upon what is good for society. The greater good, if you like.
In my life, I live in the society that exists now, not the one I think should exist or even the one that may exist in the future. When living your life you accept that, and work with that, because these are the facts of life.
So the question becomes; what is the point of talking about how society should be?
If enough people believe in something in the end something will be done about it.
The way forward is to have strong beliefs about how things should be, and to be willing to argue for those beliefs, just as I am doing here.
That is all most of us can reasonably expect to do.
Richard
And, here I am in the discussion…
I think it’s important to talk about how society should be and do things to bring it closer to that ideal at the same time.
One thing I do is run this web site.
Another thing I do is speak to about 10,000 people a year on what it means to have a learning disability in today’s world.
I also train teachers to be better teachers of people with learning disabilities using a variety of tools and technologies.
I work in prisons, factories, K12 schools, universities, and more.
I’ve been doing this kind of work for over 20 years.
So, I’m proactive and I suggest we all go out and make a fuss about what we like and don’t like about the way learning disabilities are dealt with in society.
Richard,
All respect to you for that.
Yeah absolutely! It is combined opinion that holds the most sway.
Richard
Richard,
So do you agree, that rejecting someone for a job, based only on a spelling test is a form of discrimination?
Richard
Here are my conditions for agreeing with that:
1. all other things about the applicants are equal.
2. the person would have no problems with the spelling test if using a computer with a spelling checker.
If the job involves writing and the person will not be given a computer or some other support tool, how can they do it?
Richard,
Most office type jobs these days will use a computer. I agree that if you can’t get the correct spelling even with a spellchecker then this represents a real communication problem.
As far as jobs that involve writing but don’t use a word processor. Yes there may be times when it would be inappropriate to hire a poor speller.
Very often however the part of the job where this writing is involved may be quite small, and the writing might take place in a very limited field.
For example I know a dyslexic who is also a physiotherapist. This job does entail some writing without a word processor. However she knows how to spell all the relevant technical words, so this represents no real difficulty.
Teaching is another example of this sort of job. Again the vocabulary may be quite narrow, and as lessons are prepared in advance there is usually an opportunity to check unsure spellings beforehand.
I would also say it depends on the importance and purpose of what is being written. My spelling difficulties don’t represent a communication difficulty. I mean this in the sense that someone else looking at what I have written will always be able to tell what it says. There are many people whose handwriting presents more of an obstacle. So unless the spelling is on show for public scrutiny or in a situation where spelling is the central focus what I write should be sufficient.
One instance where my spelling did cause a problem for me was when working in a kitchen. I was asked to write the menu out on the boards, and made some errors. I don’t think this means I shouldn’t have been given the job in the first place. There are all sorts of ways this problem could have been overcome, with an understanding employer, or indeed even (as was most certainly my case) without.
Richard
It occurred to me offline that we are talking at cross purposes in part of this discussion.
I would totally agree that a “general spelling test” as a job entry filter for all jobs (whether or not they have anything to do with spelling or writing) is not only bad, but discriminatory. I’m pretty sure this was your initial intention.
I’ve not heard of that kind of job entry filter in this country (that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, it might) so reacted to something different.
So, the idea that looking at spelling ability in isolation is an indication of general intelligence is absurd and we need to work hard to change that filter and perception.
But, as you’ve said (and I’ve said) if the job requires writing even using a computer, there is a heavier load placed on a person’s ability to use language well.
A spelling checker will not pick up homonyms or help a writer think through a difficult syntax problem so experience with language is important, even with tools.
I’m in no way saying that just testing spelling can give anyone an idea of experience with language but I do think that asking a person to do the kinds of writing that they would do on the job as a rite of entry is a good thing, and if there are spelling errors (word use errors) with the use of a spelling checker then there might not be a good job fit.
How’s that, are we more aligned now?
More so yes,
An employment agency in this country will quite often test spelling. It is also part of the teachers training course (but here special provision can be arranged).
I agree that certain skills are required even if a word processor is in operation.
Not sure I entirely agree with you on the homonyms issue. In the jobs I have done which involved writing things that would go out to a client, they were checked first (this was not a special provision, it was standard).
A friend of mine who worked in PR (Public Relations) also had her writing proof read. Where this is the case I realy can’t see the need to fuss over the rare occurrence of homonyms.
Obviously if the writing is expressive, as it would be in PR that is a skill all itself.
Richard
I think that filling in forms with spelling mistakes tends to make the person reading it think you could not be bothered to do it right.
Because they cant see you, they can only judge you by the words and the quality of the spelling etc in front of them.
I have had many opportunities to work with those who can spell and those who can’t .. Those of us that can’t are more creative and thinking ahead of the current thought . Good Spellers make great Assistance’s. They nd keepgoing love to find your mistakes and point them out !! When I read anything and find an error ..I get the point and just continue on .. This is why they have proof readers and why spell check is so welcome .